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NCDD-DISCUSSION  August 2010, Week 3

NCDD-DISCUSSION August 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Seeking help on a new course in participatory democracy

From:

Sandy Heierbacher <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Sandy Heierbacher <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:58:36 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (147 lines)

I'd really appreciate that, Rogier!  The resources listed on the site on Bohm Dialogue haven't been updated in several years, and a new or updated resource with more of an insider's perspective on Bohm Dialogue would be most welcome.

Please don't think your emails to the list about Bohm Dialogue haven't "passed muster"!  Although once in a while we'll compile some of the threads here on the listserv and post them to the website (like our intern Allyson did with the recent thread about keypad polling), that's generally not something we have the time to do.

Any of you on the list, though, are welcome to submit resources for the NCDD blog or Resource Center -- I wish people would do that more!  I especially appreciate it when people take the time to compile resources or advice from a particular listserv thread, like Tina Nabatchi has offered to do with the responses to her recent question about legislation supporting citizen engagement.

Best,
Sandy

Sandy Heierbacher
Director, National Coalition for Dialogue & Deliberation (NCDD)
email:  [log in to unmask]
phone:  717-243-5144
website:  www.ncdd.org

Check out our "Faces of NCDD" video at http://youtu.be/Ib0kNSoPFKw and learn more about NCDD's fall events in Austin, Boston, Denver, Portland and the San Francisco Bay Area at http://ncdd.org/events


On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:03 PM, Rogier Gregoire wrote:

> I visited the site and was surprised to find that of the many posts that I've made to expand the current expiation on David's work and the directions that have evolved within the context of Bohmian dialogue none have passed muster and been included. 
> 
> The current explanations leave much to be desired in terms of Bohmian Dialogue, They seem written by third parties although I'm sure that there was an honest attempt to put before this community statements that might illuminate more succinctly the nature of Bohmian dialogue. 
> 
> Some of the comments I would agree with but they are so distilled and devoid of any sense of experience that I'm not sure that they make much sense, at least not to me.
> I will write a short addendum in the next few days and pass it on to Sandy and others who I know to have had the experience and see if we can't make a more robust commentary on Bohmian Dialogue. I would also include personal experiences that might help others to see the experiential side of this form of dialogue and its application to Critical Pedagogy.
> 
> In fact the posting today has more of the subtle issues of Bohmian Dialogue than the current posting. If there are substantial disagreements or comments that could be useful perhaps they could pass them on to me for my own better understanding of Bohmian Dialogue. 
> Rogier Gregoire
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Sandy Heierbacher <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> We list and describe Bohm Dialogue in NCDD's Engagement Streams Framework (attached for those not familiar with it), so that should give people a sense of where that process fits in with other leading processes.  Also - for those not familiar with Bohm Dialogue, 5 of the best resources on Bohm Dialogue I know about are in our Resource Center.  Check out the Bohm tag in the Resource Center at http://ncdd.org/rc/item/tag/bohm-dialogue
>> 
>> For years, I've noticed that there have always been just a few vocal proponents of Bohm Dialogue on the listserv.  I almost never hear about people offering trainings in Bohm Dialogue or events run using the process, so there don't seem to be that many opportunities for new people to get excited about or build skills in the process.  I know of a couple of long-standing Bohm dialogue groups out there, but they're generally very quiet about what they do.  Is there more going on out there that you could tell us about, Ray or Gregoire?  If you'd like to see more interest in the method from the NCDD community, letting people know about opportunities to experience it or learn more would be a good place to start.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Sandy
>> 
>> Sandy Heierbacher
>> Director, National Coalition for Dialogue & Deliberation (NCDD)
>> 
>> email:  [log in to unmask]
>> phone:  717-243-5144
>> website:  www.ncdd.org
>> 
>> Check out our "Faces of NCDD" video at http://youtu.be/Ib0kNSoPFKw and learn more about NCDD's fall events in Austin, Boston, Denver, Portland and the San Francisco Bay Area at http://ncdd.org/events
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.
>> <ddStreams8-10.pdf>
>> 
>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Seigfried, Ray wrote:
>> 
>>> Gregoire, Barnett and Howard,
>>> A question raised by Gregoire is one that I also have that being, Where
>>> does Bohm Dialogue fit with D&D? At the very first conference held in
>>> Washington DC Lee Nichol held a three day Bohmian dialogue and several
>>> years later in Denver Lee and I held a session on Bohm dialogue but
>>> since that time I have not seen much conversation on Bohm. I think it is
>>> an important concern but one that each member must answer. I am
>>> wondering if there exist enough interest in this type of dialogue to
>>> continue this conversation further but in a different way? Any ideas? 
>>> Ray
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rogier Gregoire [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
>>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 5:02 AM
>>> To: Barnett Pearce; Seigfried, Ray; Howard Ward
>>> Cc: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [NCDD-DISCUSSION] Seeking help on a new course in
>>> participatory democracy
>>> Importance: High
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems to me that this conversation is at cross purposes if it is an  
>>> attempt to fit Bohmian Dialogue into the narrow and essentially  
>>> entropic notion of "participatory democracy". The existing political  
>>> system is driven by a need to achieve consensus, not understanding.  
>>> Dialogue, particularly Bohmian dialogue, is aimed at promoting  
>>> understanding not necessarily consensus.
>>> 
>>> (I say necessarily because there may be some level of consensus in the  
>>> early stages of a bohmian dialogue but it is never an end in itself  
>>> only a temporary means that hopefully one can evolve through on the  
>>> way to mutual understanding.)
>>> 
>>> Dialogue has taken on many different forms within NCDD over the years,  
>>> all to fit a particular framework of point of view that seems to work  
>>> in a particular situation or to answer a public demand but I have  
>>> seldom seen or experienced an effort at understanding in the way that  
>>> Bohmian Dialogue and David Bohm suggested in this community.  
>>> Partially, because the (society) community of NCDD finds diversity at  
>>> any level abhorrent ( or at least difficult) and has little tolerance  
>>> of and for the inevitable and infinite diversity of human interests.  
>>> Ironically, the diversity of forms of dialogue forms within NCDD seem  
>>> to be infinitely diverse.
>>> 
>>> I see the notion of diversity as an essential and critical aspect of  
>>> humanity, if not the universe. All Bohmian Dialogue seems to promote  
>>> (IMHO) is an understanding of this essential diversity.
>>> 
>>> On the other hand and for the most part, debate is a zero sum game  
>>> that even denies (in its classical form) the right of the participants  
>>> to determine who wins and who loses. Debate does make for passionate  
>>> and reasoned conversation but it seldom promotes transformation or a  
>>> more inclusive understanding of the issues at hand (IMHO).
>>> 
>>> If we (I) want to promote participatory democracy the (my) first  
>>> effort in that direction ought (presumptuously) to be to driven by an  
>>> acceptance of the inherent diversity of a democracy and the holistic  
>>> foundation upon which it rests.
>>> 
>>> There are two realities in every human life, one is objective and  
>>> reflects the common experiences that we share with one another either  
>>> by contract or conditioning and the other is the subjective reality  
>>> that is constructed intuitively within our individual and  
>>> idiosyncratic notions of self. One promotes the questions, "what is  
>>> this?" and the other "who and I?" The two questions are  inseparable  
>>> and inextricable bound together. Bohmian dialogue is a practice that  
>>> helps to answer both questions, first individually and then and  
>>> hopefully, collectively.
>>> 
>>> Your faithful servant,
>>> 
>>> Rogier Gregoire
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.
> 
> ---
> 
> NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.

---

NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.

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