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NCDD-DISCUSSION  August 2010, Week 3

NCDD-DISCUSSION August 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Seeking help on a new course in participatory democracy

From:

Howard Ward <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Howard Ward <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:32:01 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

Thanks Ray - You've expressed my own perspective very well.

And thanks also to Bill for sharing the Erace, New Orleans dialogue program with us, which seems to clearly have an inclusive and open nature to it.

As always, the intent is not to be critical of the wonderful hard work people are engaging in, often tirelessly and with great care. But rather to simply suggest that our own well-being and survival may be dependent upon moving towards a less divisive and more open approach. And one, as Ray points out, that is largely focused on self-understanding.

Regards - Howard


-----Original Message-----
>From: "Seigfried, Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Aug 18, 2010 2:45 PM
>To: Howard Ward <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
>Subject: RE: [NCDD-DISCUSSION] Seeking help on a new course in participatory democracy
>
>Howard,
>As a "Bohmian" myself I would agree with you Howard over the concept of Debate but go further in that even in some of the definitions of what is considered "Dialogue" is also in question. David Bohm had a specific idea in mind that is based on self learning when he talked about dialogue. Our assumptions need to be challenged with others so that we learn together. This takes an open and free mind. Some of the messages I have see on this discussion list and others are focused on changing others rather than a focus on self learning together in dialogue. For me the powerful separation between Bohm and other forms of dialogue is what you have pointed to; and open mind. Until we as a group see that thought is participating in the problem that we try to solve I for one do not see much hope in sustainable change. Bohm was not alone in this look at the readings of Krishnamurti and Einstein. 
>Ray Seigfried 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NCDD Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Howard Ward
>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:40 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [NCDD-DISCUSSION] Seeking help on a new course in participatory democracy
>
>
>Hello Everyone - I guess I'll chime in as a person who feels it's important to call attention to the 'limitations' of a debate approach. My 'general' and honest view is that debate should only be used when dialogue isn't an option.
>
>I'm not suggesting that debate has no value. What I'm suggesting is that the 'me versus you' nature of debate is divisive and less conducive to learning together. 
>
>The impression I have of the 'dialogue & deliberation' work that most of the members of NCDD engage in is work involving 'negotiation & reaching consensus'. So it's quite possible that people in this group find themselves in situations where suggesting a dialogue approach isn't often an option. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to push for a more effective approach whenever possible, or to continue to move in the direction of using a dialogue approach in more situations.
>
>Given this general group focus on negotiating and reaching consensus, a few of us here occasionally feel it's important to raise the issue of using Bohmian Dialogue.
>
>Before I go any further, I'd like to stress that I am actively using the Bohm dialogue approach now. And by that I mean that I am simply 'sharing how it seems to me', and that all of the suggestions I make are open to further exploration. There's no intent to 'convince' anyone of some 'abstract view'. The words are only meant to point to what 'seems to be the actuality'.
>
>Onward...........
>
>One of the core aspects of Bohmian dialogue is found in this excerpt from the Bohm, Factor, and Garrett dialogue proposal: 
>
>"It is not concerned with deliberately trying to alter or change behavior nor to get the participants to move toward a predetermined goal. Any such attempt would distort and obscure the processes hat the Dialogue has set out to explore."
>
>
>What I see as our most fundamental human problem is not that we have different views, but rather the 'lack of openness' to questioning and changing the views when the situation merits it.
>
>A debate approach, especially one with a clear 'adversarial' nature, essentially perpetuates the habit of defending an ideological position, rather than 'openly exploring together'. And that, I suggest, is just not a very effective learning approach. Yes, learning can and does occur in debate. But it's just not nearly as conducive to learning together as exploratory dialogue is.
>
>As I've suggested here before, I do see the value and importance of negotiating and reaching consensus, and even some debate. But I've also suggested that doing this shouldn't be confused for 'getting at the root' of our problems. So here I'll suggest that another problem with debate is that it is 'part of the root problem'.
>
>Here I'll offer a couple David Bohm quotes from one of his seminars that he gave in the late 80's, the  transcript of which is available in the book 'Thought As A System':
>
>"What is the source of all this trouble? That is really what we have been concerned with in all these dialogues of the past few years. I'm saying that the source is basically in thought."
>
>"I'm saying the reason we don't see the source of our problems is that the means by which we try to solve them is the source."
>
>
>When we 'defend views in a debate' it's primarily 'using the source of our problems to try to solve them.' Not entirely, but in general.
>
>Debate may indeed have it's uses, but defending a 'view' tends to perpetuate the 'incoherence in thought' that Bohm was suggesting we need to bring a greater awareness to, which is partly done by 'holding our views loosely', and observing 'what thought is doing'.
>
>When I occasionally raise the issue of 'trying' Bohmian dialogue, I frequently make this following suggestion: "Adversarial debate is a miserable failure." That's not a suggestion that is directed at the type of debate that Pete is describing. It's a suggestion that we are commonly 'conditioned' by the culture we grow up in to take a 'me versus you' stance, and we are also conditioned by the culture to "stand up for what you believe." What I'm suggesting is that this 'cultural conditioning' is divisive, incoherent, and detrimental to our well-being.
>
>I'm not suggesting that this ubiquitous conditioning is going to go away anytime soon, but that's no reason to not do what we can to move towards a more coherent 'cooperative approach' that more appropriately reflects our interconnected relationship.
>
>I suggest that this 'me versus you' nature of 'most' debate, is perpetuating the divisiveness in society, and it also tends to perpetuate the false idea that 'thought' is the appropriate tool for solving the problems being created by thought.
>
>That's 'how it seems to me'. It's not a judgmental statement implying good, bad, right, or wrong. Just an expression of 'how it seems'.
>
>
>Regards - Howard
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Martin Carcasson <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Aug 17, 2010 11:14 AM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: [NCDD-DISCUSSION] Seeking help on a new course in participatory democracy
>>
>>Before I attended NCDD 2008 and talked with Kai and Pete, I was among those that tended to attack a straw person version of debate while making the case for deliberation. While I was never a debater, I did teach Argumentation and Debate for years before I found D&D, and then struggled with how to teach debate based on my new found deliberative perspective. Kai and Pete helped me see the irony of the situation (attacking debate in the name of deliberation by using bad debate tactics). Since then, I've started focusing more on the broader term of "interactive communication" in my work, under which I would include debate, deliberation, and dialogue as three primary forms. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and each works better for particular situations (as Barnett argued). Often, we need each to improve the other. Debate can be particularly used before or after deliberation, for example, and dialogue often has to precede both.
>>
>>Most of our public discourse is woefully one-sided and unilateral, whether it is through mass media, talk radio, forwarded emails, newspaper message boards, bumper stickers, blogs, or a bad conversation where neither side is actually listening. When we actually get some back and forth, it is primarily through bad debate, essentially people talking past each other and attacking positions nobody holds. Such communication makes it very difficult to do the hard work required of democracy, such as working through the tough choices and tradeoffs that are so critical to public decision-making and problem-solving. Such communication leads to polarization, cynicism, apathy, and, ultimately, bad decisions.
>>
>>High quality deliberation is certainly a good antidote to the problems of bad unilateral communication, but good, principled debate as outlined by Pete can be as well in its own ways. It can lead to very productive and insightful interaction that clarify issues and help us cut through the chaff and get to the heart of the issues. 
>>
>>I like Pete's point about the audience being key to debates. This is also a weakness that we need to think through some more. If debate is seen as simply a spectator sport, its value is minimized. Debate needs to be understood by the audience as a process being performed by the debaters for their benefit, but they need to actively mentally engaged for that process to be fruitful. A principled debate can provide very valuable information to those struggling with an issue, but if people just watch to see who "wins" and who has the best one-liners that value will be lost. 
>>
>>At Colorado State University, I've been able to transform our old "Argumentation and Debate" class into a Public Argumentation class. They still do a debate (hopefully, a productive, principled one), but then shift and turn their debate topic into a deliberation, and produce an "NIF-style" discussion guide on their issue. In the class, they are thus exposed to both debate and deliberation as key tools for community decision making, develop an understanding of the pros and cons of each, and gain the skills to encourage high quality in both.
>>
>>Bottom line, I strongly agree with Pete that we need to find ways to improve debate and have it included as a viable community tool alongside deliberation and dialogue for situations for call for it, rather than just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Having more deliberation folks thinking about how to rehabilitate debate and make it work better, by minimizing its drawbacks and maximizing its advantages, is clearly a worthy endeavor. 
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Martín Carcasson, Ph.D.
>>Associate Professor, Department of Communication Studies
>>Director, Center for Public Deliberation
>>210 Eddy Building, 1783 Campus Delivery
>>Colorado State University
>>Fort Collins, CO  80523-1783
>>
>>(970) 491-5628
>>Center website: www.cpd.colostate.edu
>>
>>---
>>
>>NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.
>
>---
>
>NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.
>

---

NCDD's discussion and announcement lists are generously provided by L-Soft ( www.lsoft.com ) and are powered by L-Soft's LISTSERV mailing list management software ( www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html ).  Learn more about NCDD's email lists in the community section of the NCDD website ( www.thataway.org/community/lists/ ).  Please read this mailing list's rules ( www.thataway.org/community/listrules ) before you post.

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