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NCDD-DISCUSSION  January 2007, Week 4

NCDD-DISCUSSION January 2007, Week 4

Subject:

Re: FW: Citizens say yes to Unified N.O. Plan

From:

Norma Buydens <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Norma Buydens <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:41:05 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (392 lines)

And I would add to Ken's point--the common language needs to be a 
language which supports minority and divergent views.  This means in 
most cases that it must not be a language defined by assumptions 
internal to the elite--including in a global perspective.  This means, 
frankly, that if you are serious about changing the American political 
process to make it more democratic, you need to include non-American 
voices and perspectives.  It is not that there is anything inherently 
wrong with American voices, but that as the only global superpower, 
America is in a de facto position of colonizer and its viewpoints are 
far too dominant.  So the common language must not just be set by 
"majority rules".  You have to consider history and be sure to include 
historically oppressed/silenced groups--not because those individuals 
in those groups are necessarily better thinkers, but simply because the 
process requires the inclusion of those groups.  A more sociologically 
sophisticated and less exclusively relentlessly individualistic 
psychological approach is needed.

I am writing this stuff not to wonk on Americans--although that is a 
great Canadian pasttime ;-) even now under the scary Conservatives--but 
because I respect the work that you are trying to do, and think it 
could be so much richer if you would look at American politics in a way 
that includes other cultures from the globe.  After all, whether we 
non-Americans like it or not, what happens electorally in the U.S. 
vitally affects our futures.  Think of Canadian youth being slaughtered 
in Afghanistan; think about the effect globally of Bush's refusal to 
accept climate change science...

As a feminist, I like the idea of a female President but I too have 
doubts about Hilary Clinton, in that she seems to epitomize the 
personality cult politics that has been so troublesome in American 
presidential contests in the past--almost every presidential contest I 
might add.  That emphasis on personality politics is not necessary to 
democracy--there are many other models which downplay the importance of 
the head of state/government, not least by dividing the roles as in 
Canada and the U.K.  I am also troubled that Hilary seems to speak from 
the right of her party, no doubt in a bid for appealing to the center 
of the electorate.  If the election of the leader really depended on 
the election of the whole party, this would not happen.

Another critical "external to America" question:  If you were to look 
at American political culture, which would really be the more radical 
symbol of a step toward increased social justice/inclusion/equality in 
American society--the breaching of the de facto rule of the male gender 
through a female presidency or the breaching of the de facto white 
supremacy of the political system, through a non-white presidency?  I 
don't know the answer to that one.--Norma Buydens


Ken Bausch wrote:


>Kenoli and Rogier,
> 
>I thoroughly agree.  At the outset of discussions we make fundamental
>mistakes if we shut out relevant stakeholders or assume that they share 
a
>common vocabulary.  Only after a common language and mutual respect are
>established can a group move on to solid and creative decision making.
> 
>Ken Bausch
>Institute for 21st Century Agoras
>
>  _____  
>
>From: NCDD Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
On
>Behalf Of Kenoli Oleari
>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:12 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [NCDD-LIST] FW: Citizens say yes to Unified N.O. Plan
>Importance: High
>
>
>Right on! The issues you raise are key. I almost jumped in earlier with 
a
>discussion of what we mean by "decision." There is generally more focus 
in
>our world on the decision making process rather than on the criteria of 
full
>inclusion, connection, dialogue, legitimization of all voices, effective
>engagement, etc. that need to be in place to make any "decision" 
meaningful.
>If we effectively provide a voice to the diversity of perspectives you 
have
>described and and provide an opportunity for people to exercise their 
voice
>in a meaningful way, almost any decision making process "works;" if we 
don't
>almost any fails. 
>
>If we meet this criteria of engagement, we often find that what is 
needed to
>make a decision or how we even perceive the process or need for a 
decision
>changes drastically. 
>
>--Kenoli
>
>On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:32 AM, Rogier Gregoire wrote:
>
>
>Dear Don 
>I know the discussion of consensus has considerable inertia within the 
NCDD
>community and has had a certain impetus for quite some time now. I am
>raising my voice in favor of diversity as the guiding force in dialogue 
but
>less so in deliberation. Consensus is antithetical to promoting and
>supporting greater diversity of thought and opinion. The entire universe
>depends on diversity at every level of inter-related interactive 
existence,
>yet we press for a homogeneity that is at its core unstable and 
intolerant.
>We should be promoting a tolerance for diversity and seeking ways of
>achieving inclusion without penalty of identity. It is the broad 
spectrum of
>ideas. viewpoints and interests that makes our nation and the larger 
world
>interesting and sustainable. Political homogeneity is a utopian notion 
that
>is only achievable through a tolerance for diversity and an acceptance 
of
>holism. 
>
>Before detractors home in on racial issues and ignore the diversity of
>civic, social, intellectual and spiritual diversity that we depend on 
as a
>society, let me urge our membership to ask the central question that 
holds
>the community together; to look at our assumptions, that contribution to
>experience that provides the appearance of difference. Dialogue is a
>beginning not an end in its self. 
>
>Dialogue can assist the political process by enriching the discussion 
but it
>is not a political instrument. Consensus is a goal of the political 
effort
>and comes after the dialogue has been kept open long enough to have the
>collective (polity) aware of its true diverse nature. Then and only 
then can
>we construct a process towards consensus. 
>
>As in all my contribution to the dialogue I offer this view from my own
>first person perspective as an effort to expose the collective to a a 
view
>that emanates from my personal integrity.
>Humbly,
>Rogier Gregoire 
>
>On Jan 24, 2007, at 8:11 AM, Don Klein wrote:
>
>
>
>The discussion of majority/minority situations reminds me of an 
important
>contribution to our thinking about consensus that was made by Dr. Robert
>Marshak. He suggests that we don't think in terms of "creating" 
consensus
>but rather in terms of "determining" whether consensus exists. With that
>definition, there are two basic rules for deliberation in order to 
maximize
>the search: (1) That discussion focus only on areas of agreement; 
discussing
>whether and how we disagree doesn't contribute to the search for 
agreeement.
>(2) That everyone who wishes to contribute to the discussion be 
encouraged
>to say everything he/she considers relevant to the discussion that is on
>his/her mind. His doctoral research had to do with this creative and 
useful
>way of defining consensus. Sorry I don't have the title of his 
dissertation.
>Marshak can be reached at:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 
[log in to unmask] -
>Don Klein
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Lars Hasselblad Torres
>To:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>[log in to unmask]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [NCDD-LIST] FW: Citizens say yes to Unified N.O. Plan
>
>Olya, great tension you raise in *any* group process: we know that 
groups
>pretty easily develop their unique cultural 'thumbprint' and the 
'squeaky
>wheel' is often unappreciated, even in the best-intentioned processes.
>What's counts as a "viable" creative idea is never easy to figure out: 
often
>there isn't enough data in hand to evaluate the proposal as a group. Or
>perhaps more disturbing is the strong idea that has a deep minority 
minority
>support which the cultural majority doesn't "get," much less is 
prepared to
>give its support to. 
>
>I seem to recall that we encountered somewhat similar territory during 
the
>last NCDD conference, when the problem of numerically minority voices in
>majoritarian processes was raised. we did not have time to address it 
fully
>during that last day's session -- and my understanding was that it is 
likely
>an issue that was brought to the surface *precisely because* it was a
>*ranking process* that felt unjust, and might not otherwise have 
surfaced or
>taken as seriously in a situation or process where its urgency was less
>urgently expressed.
>
>I don't know, perhaps its more of a question: can a majoritarian rule
>process surface issues that need to be taken into a second kind of
>forum/process? A federal manager once told me, "A good public process 
can
>get you to 80% agreement. You need processes that can get that on the 
record
>and then get deeply into that other 20%." (I'm paraphrasing, to be 
sure).
>
>Great concerns -- thank you for voicing them in this way. Its a very
>interesting tension.
>
>Very best,
>
>lars
>
>
>-----
>Lars Hasselblad Torres
>Researcher & Web Developer
>802-563-2759
>
>www.americaspeaks.org
>
>Download AmericaSpeaks' Latest Report,
>"A Manager's Guide to Public Engagement":
><http://www.americaspeaks.org/lab/docs/ibm_managers_guide.pdf>
>http://www.americaspeaks.org/lab/docs/ibm_managers_guide.pdf
>
>
>On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:22 PM, Olya Kenney wrote:
>
>
>Hi Lars
>
>Thanks for your response. I have participated in 2 America Speaks 
events, so
>I'm familiar with the process. I think that despite the encouragement to
>enter minority reports and the theme teams efforts, there is still a
>tendency at the tables, when an off the wall idea is brought up, to 
dismiss
>it. I know I often had to force the person entering 
>data to put down an idea that only one or two people expressed. Once it
>wasn't picked up by the group, others were quick to move on...
>
>I know the sponsoring idea gets everything, but I just wishe there were 
a
>way to encourage creativity more.
>
>I don't think this is an issue unique to America Speaks--I think the 
balance
>between concensus and creativity is always tricky. I just wonder 
>sometimes what great ideas might be being missed...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
>CC:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>[log in to unmask]
>From:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [NCDD-LIST] FW: Citizens say yes to Unified N.O. Plan
>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:15:45 -0500
>To:  <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
>
>Thanks for the discussion about the Unified New Orleans Plan and
>AmericaSpeaks' opportunity to contribute to the process. I wanted to 
offer
>an alternative view to what often happens at a town meeting to 
complement
>Kenoli's take. 
>
>For those of you who are not familiar with the process, participants at 
a
>21st Century Town Meeting -- sometimes as many as 2,500 or more in a 
single
>room -- are seated at discussion tables of ten. Throughout the day,
>participants will discuss a range of topics relevant to the policy 
matters
>at hand, and will be asked to come to a consensus at the table around 
policy
>recommendations they would like to make. These consensus responses are 
typed
>into a laptop and fed electronically to a "theme team." It is the role 
of
>this team to identify the strongest themes across all of the tables in 
the
>room.
>
>It is these "priorities" or "themes" that are, as Kenoli, subject to a
>"majority rules" scenario.
>
>Two points to consider:
>1) A table with a strong "minority report" or dissenting view are 
encouraged
>to enter those into their keypads
>2) Theme teams will often look for these insights and report them to the
>lead facilitator to share with the group
>
>They are not, however, subject to the "majority rule scenario." They 
are,
>however, captured in the report that goes to the sponsoring 
organization.
>
>The most important caution Kenoli raises, in my opinion, is the 
question of
>"speed." It is a challenge that there are often dense, complex policy 
issues
>on the table, and 20 or 30 minutes for discussion of that issue among 10
>individuals is rarely enough to get to that "deeper" level of dialogue 
where
>one has the opportunity to understand the trade-offs and underlying 
values
>implicit in such decision-making.
>
>I do believe, however, that with our increased sophistication in the
>development of discussion guides, expert presentations, diverse
>participants, and the use of multimedia presentation tools we can get 
much
>closer to developing "informed decision-making" by the true public than 
has
>been seen in any urban democracy before our time.
>
>Cheers!
>------ 
>
>Lars Hasselblad Torres
>Researcher & Web Developer
>802-563-2759
>
>www.americaspeaks.org
>
>Download AmericaSpeaks' Latest Report,
>"A Manager's Guide to Public Engagement":
><http://www.americaspeaks.org/lab/docs/ibm_managers_guide.pdf>
>http://www.americaspeaks.org/lab/docs/ibm_managers_guide.pdf
>
>
>On Jan 23, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Olya Kenney wrote:
>
>
>On the other hand, because it's a "majority rules" scenario, I think 
that
>the most creative, and therefore often least popular ideas, never have a
>chance to be fully discussed or presented.
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
>View Athletes' Collections with Live Search.
><http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=wlmemailtaglinenov06> See 
it!
>
>
>
>  _____  
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 
1/23/2007
>
>
>
>
>
>Kenoli Oleari
>1801 Fairview Street
>Berkeley, CA 94703
>Neighborhood Assemblies Network
>510-601-8217, [log in to unmask]
>http://www.sfnan.org, http://www.horizonsofchange.com
>
>
>

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June 2007, Week 1
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March 2006, Week 3

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